TOBY: A Masterclass in Playing the Villain

No Redemption Required: Creating Toby, the Character You Love to Hate.

Joining us today are the incredibly talented minds behind Toby, a bold and unconventional story about a character who defies every traditional expectation. We are thrilled to welcome Nikki Simon, writer, producer, and actress who plays the role of Peg, Edward Godfrey, co-writer, Samuel Lawrence, who brilliantly portrays the unapologetic Toby, Graeme Muncer, who brings the grounded and principled Nathaniel to life, and Joseph Betteridge, the visionary director of the project. Together, they crafted a story that is as daring as it is unforgettable, blending sharp humor with raw reality in a way that leaves a lasting impact.

Nikki Simon, writer, producer, and actress who plays Peg, what drew you to the role of Peg?

 Originally, I planned to play a Hitchcock kind of role, without speaking and making one small appearance, so I wasn't balancing a performing role in the first instance at all. It was when Joe suggested that Peg needed to provide more of a solid support for Nathaniel, that I wrote in a few poignant bits of dialogue, to show her skepticism of Toby's arrival, and Nathaniel's soft side for always seeing the good in everyone. As the producer, I knew that once we arrived on set, that the shoot would be in the very capable hands of Joe, and was so excited to see what he would do; the reality is that Ed, Joe and I were somewhat inseparable once we started the project at the end of 2023. Ed and I met in September on a firearms course and we got on very well, and I invited him to co-write with me, and we sat down for pancakes at My Old Dutch in Holborn, and the rest is history.

Joseph Betteridge, director of the film, Joseph Betteridge: How did you find balancing humor with the more serious aspects of Toby's downfall? Was it difficult to maintain that balance?

It was difficult. From the script to the edit, knowing when to crack a joke or stay with the drama is important to understand when making comedy. For me, the first thing was understanding how important that balance of drama is for comedy. It might sound strange, but drama in comedy is a necessity. One of my favourite pieces of advice I was given was that the genre "Comedy-Drama" is pointless.  If a comedy isn't dramatic, it's boring,  and if your drama isn't funny, it's not realistic.

I always look for that advice in any script I take on. With Toby, not only does the drama keep the audience engaged, but it also elevates the humour. Toby feels so much wilder when he's standing next to the stressed Nathaniel, and the last joke wouldn't hit so hard if we hadn't built the tension up through an explosive confrontation.

Finding that balance, I think, comes down to instinct and practice. At the end of the day, your role as a director is as a stand-in for the audience. It's up to you to watch the cast work and see what works and what doesn't. To do that, you really need to trust your gut. When you're watching the scenes, you'll feel when something isn't working. If the drama is too strong, or if the comedy isn't landing. But that gut feeling is refined through practice. I'm nowhere near perfect at it. I still have a long way to go as a director, and learning to trust my instincts is all part of the process.

Joseph Betteridge: How did you and the writers collaborate to create a character like Toby?

For me, what really helped the most was brainstorming. When the script was being developed and refined for production, we'd have sessions where we'd bounce ideas off each other. We'd ask ourselves, "What can we add?" or "What can we lose?" and throw ideas into the group to craft and refine the perfect moments that defined the monster we wanted to create.

Having creative partners as keen and excited to make something as you are is a true blessing. The energy is infectious. Ideas would grow as they bounced around the room. Some of my favourite moments came through these sessions, like Toby's pep talk while going to town on himself or him shaking everyone's hand and not just Nathaniel's. On set, the writers would even add lines like 'Sticky buns' to keep the humour going. Our collaboration was about trusting each other to know this is a safe space to pitch the wildest ideas and, most importantly, make each other laugh.  

Edward Godfrey, and Nikki Simon, the story has such an unusual premise. What inspired you to write a character like Toby, who is so fundamentally unlikeable?

Toby is inspired by a real-life rogue, who lasted only eight days in his new job, before he was sacked due to unacceptable behaviours in and out of the workplace. I have a copy of the Letter of Termination that the real 'Toby' received and I was so shocked/surprised/entertained by the idea that someone would really behave like this, and I wanted to 'see' it, so I wrote it. I hasten to add, that the opening scene and ending scenes were Ed's mastermind.

Samuel Lawrence, you play Toby, how did you prepare to embody such a self-absorbed and morally oblivious character?

Toby's lack of self-awareness, I think, was another one of the biggest conundrums for me. As someone who over-analyses every movement, word and action in most aspects of my life, I struggled initially, wrestling with the concept of his lack of self-awareness. This is what made him so mercurial. Every step of the way, I debated with myself and noted down on the script, questioning, "Is this action done because he's unaware of the effects it will have, or is it because he does not care about the effects?". This was something Joe and I played with at several points during the filming, where we would dial up and down the levels of malice and self-awareness. There are moments where he appears to be truly fuelled by getting ahead at the expense of others and times when he just wants to take the easiest path to nowhere. He's a contradiction, as we all are. One of my favourite things to do as an actor is to listen to the music that embodies the feeling of the character. For Toby I really leant into the swagger of Oasis and the wholehearted self-belief of people like Kanye and Drake. Feeling the rhythm and pulse that drives them is really important to me.

Graeme Muncer, you play Nathaniel, Graeme Muncer, what do you think Nathaniel represents in contrast to Toby, and how did you develop that dynamic on screen?

Nathaniel’s character, I think, was as far away from Toby’s as night is to day.  Nathaniel, in my eyes, was an honest, hardworking, successful business owner running a successful company with appreciative staff.  Toby, on the other hand, was a fly by night, wide boy who cared for no-one, other than himself and really wasn’t concerned who he upset.  The dynamics between both of us on screen, I think, widened scene on scene so that by the end of the film it was very obvious that these two characters were from entirely different worlds. The  development of the characters very much depended on the superb writing which I think made it easier for both of us to portray them in the way we did.

Samuel Lawrence: How did you prepare to embody a character like Toby, especially given his lack of self-awareness?

Toby's lack of self-awareness, I think, was another one of the biggest conundrums for me. As someone who over-analyses every movement, word and action in most aspects of my life, I struggled initially, wrestling with the concept of his lack of self-awareness. This is what made him so mercurial. Every step of the way, I debated with myself and noted down on the script, questioning, "Is this action done because he's unaware of the effects it will have, or is it because he does not care about the effects?". This was something Joe and I played with at several points during the filming, where we would dial up and down the levels of malice and self-awareness. There are moments where he appears to be truly fuelled by getting ahead at the expense of others and times when he just wants to take the easiest path to nowhere. He's a contradiction, as we all are. 

One of my favourite things to do as an actor is to listen to the music that embodies the feeling of the character. For Toby I really leant into the swagger of Oasis and the wholehearted self-belief of people like Kanye and Drake. Feeling the rhythm and pulse that drives them is really important to me.

Nikki Simon, can you discuss the decision to go with workshopping the roles with the actors instead of traditional auditions? How do you think this approach affected the final result?

It was more Joe's idea more to workshop the characters for the audition process, so we could give the actors a chance to show us different sides to the characters. When Graeme walked in, we almost knew straight away he would be Nathaniel, because of how we felt during his audition. Samuel gave us a self-tape for his first audition, and we wanted him in the room for the recalls. When we saw how Graeme and Samuel worked together off each other, it was a no-brainer.

How did you find this process, and how was it different from any other casting experience?

Samuel: I had an absolute blast working on Toby from the audition process through to the final filming. It was full of play, and the brilliant director, Joe Betteridge was fantastic at inserting tasks or challenges into rehearsals and scenes to physicalise that sense of play from time to time. Whether that was messing with my Boss's desk whilst delivering lines or trying to stuff biscuits into my face as quickly as possible, it really created a sense of freedom. 

The audition process started this off right from the start. Once we were into the final round of auditions, we screen-tested each possible Toby with each possible Nathaniel, which meant that we got to play off the other actor, pick up what they were putting down, and experiment with the different energies and scenarios that created. 

Graeme Muncer, Nathaniel seems to be the person who eventually sees through Toby’s façade. How did you approach portraying a character who represents the opposite of Toby’s self-centeredness?

Yes, the film is outrageous in parts and to be fair quite shocking, but to me playing Nathaniel I thought the most important thing was to play the character as straight laced and proper as the script allowed.  We all felt, on set, that the more serious Nathaniel was played, the funnier it seemed and I certainly felt that by trying to put myself in Nathaniel’s shoes and get angry and frustrated with Toby’s antics was the best way. I found the process easier than expected because it was so well written and directed.

Joseph Betteridge: What inspired you to take on this project, and what specifically drew you to Toby's character and his lack of redemption?

It's hard to be specific on this, as Toby's lack of redemption is what drew me to the project. Right from scene 1, the character's throughline completely hooked me. I was always taught that standard story practice is to give your audience a lead character to route for or at least sympathise with. Even if they start as villainous, their character development should see them learn, grow and redeem themselves. But Toby never does. Not even for a moment.

From the moment we meet him to his parting 'Gift', he's a constant, unshakable, grade-A a**hole. I just had to know if a story like that, if a character like that, one that defied every story structure I was taught, could work.

Nikki Simon, what challenges did you face during the production, and how did you overcome them, particularly in balancing your role as both a key actor and producer? 

The biggest challenge was to ensure that all cast and crew were available to film at the same time. I prepared well in advance, and besides the director, I already knew the crew I wanted to hire from a previous short film I was in. Ed introduced me to Joe, and I hired a 1st AD who both Joe and Samuel knew. A friend pointed me in the direction of our art director, and then I had to look externally for a script supervisor; the runners I already knew. In terms of post production, Joe knows George, and I out out a call for a colourist, a composer and an animator. The hardest part about that process was that when I thought we had someone on board, they pulled out, so it was finding someone else instead to fill that gap, as I wanted a private viewing ready for the beginning of August 2024.

Edward Godfrey, how did you and Nikki work together to ensure Toby’s narrative didn’t follow the traditional arc of redemption?

That was easy to achieve as I wanted to go against the grain and leave the audience satisfied that Toby got what he deserved and we see him being rattled and also dissatisfied that Toby had the last laugh.

Graeme Muncer, what do you think Nathaniel represents in contrast to Toby, and how did you develop that dynamic on screen?

Nathaniel’s character, I think, was as far away from Toby’s as night is to day.  Nathaniel, in my eyes, was an honest, hardworking, successful business owner running a successful company with appreciative staff.  Toby, on the other hand, was a fly by night, wide boy who cared for no-one, other than himself and really wasn’t concerned who he upset.  The dynamics between both of us on screen, I think, widened scene on scene so that by the end of the film it was very obvious that these two characters were from entirely different worlds. The  development of the characters very much depended on the superb writing which I think made it easier for both of us to portray them in the way we did.

Samuel Lawrence: Toby is a very bold and arrogant character with no redemption. What challenges did you face in bringing such an unapologetic character to life?

I'm always drawn to very complex, challenging and often unlikable characters. I find it fascinating to get to play in the headspace of someone with very different morals and approaches to situations than myself. This was true of Toby more than any other character I've played. There is joy, both for me and hopefully also for the audience, in watching and experiencing someone who has so little regard for anyone else's thoughts, feelings, or wants. 

Our brilliant writer and producer, Nikki Simon, was a great help in this. Just when you feel you've gone too far in your performance, Nikki would remind you that Toby is based on a real person who did even worse things as part of their downfall. So having that grounding and knowing that people like Toby really exist, gave me the license to play and have fun with the role. Joy was such a big part of this process for me, and I discovered that the key to the character as a whole was Toby's inner mischief. The ability to find the joy and light in such despicable actions. That is was the hardest balancing act: how can such an unlikable person, doing such unlikable things, lead an entertaining film and keep the audience with them throughout? 

I believe that we found that in the final result, and I think it comes from an innate feeling of envy of those around us who are so carefree while simultaneously rooting for their downfall.

Graeme Muncer, what was your experience working with Samuel Lawrence (Toby) in portraying the growing tension between the two characters?

It was an amazing experience working with Sam.   When you are lucky enough to be playing opposite a great actor like him, the job actually becomes a whole lot easier and the growing tensions that we portrayed on screen therefore became very natural.  The most important thing, when they shouted ‘cut’ was we immediately fell into fits of laughter and felt very comfortable in each other’s presence.

Joseph Betteridge: How did you and the writers collaborate to create a character like Toby?

For me, what really helped the most was brainstorming. When the script was being developed and refined for production, we'd have sessions where we'd bounce ideas off each other. We'd ask ourselves, "What can we add?" or "What can we lose?" and throw ideas into the group to craft and refine the perfect moments that defined the monster we wanted to create.

Having creative partners as keen and excited to make something as you are is a true blessing. The energy is infectious. Ideas would grow as they bounced around the room. Some of my favourite moments came through these sessions, like Toby's pep talk while going to town on himself or him shaking everyone's hand and not just Nathaniel's. On set, the writers would even add lines like 'Sticky buns' to keep the humour going. Our collaboration was about trusting each other to know this is a safe space to pitch the wildest ideas and, most importantly, make each other laugh.  

Joseph Betteridge: How did you find balancing humor with the more serious aspects of Toby's downfall? Was it difficult to maintain that balance?

It was difficult. From the script to the edit, knowing when to crack a joke or stay with the drama is important to understand when making comedy. For me, the first thing was understanding how important that balance of drama is for comedy. It might sound strange, but drama in comedy is a necessity. One of my favourite pieces of advice I was given was that the genre "Comedy-Drama" is pointless.  If a comedy isn't dramatic, it's boring,  and if your drama isn't funny, it's not realistic.

I always look for that advice in any script I take on. With Toby, not only does the drama keep the audience engaged, but it also elevates the humour. Toby feels so much wilder when he's standing next to the stressed Nathaniel, and the last joke wouldn't hit so hard if we hadn't built the tension up through an explosive confrontation.

Finding that balance, I think, comes down to instinct and practice. At the end of the day, your role as a director is as a stand-in for the audience. It's up to you to watch the cast work and see what works and what doesn't. To do that, you really need to trust your gut. When you're watching the scenes, you'll feel when something isn't working. If the drama is too strong, or if the comedy isn't landing. But that gut feeling is refined through practice. I'm nowhere near perfect at it. I still have a long way to go as a director, and learning to trust my instincts is all part of the process.

Joseph Betteridge: How did you approach guiding Samuel Lawrence's performance to maintain Toby's unapologetic character?

I'm not sure "guide" is the right word. It makes it sound like I knew where I wanted the performance to go. Sure, it's important to bring strong ideas about the characters and what you think they should be, but it's also important not to hold onto them. Directing should be a collaboration. Even from the auditions, I prefer having longer sessions where we can work-shop the characters with the auditionees to see what they can bring, as well as see how we work together.

Directors are normally the least experienced people on set. In the time it takes you to direct one film, your cast and crew have done about 3 or 4. So, it's important to use your collaborators' skills and not stifle them by holding onto an unshakeable vision.

Sam is a wonderful performer. He knows what he's doing. He is one of the nicest guys I've ever met, yet somehow, he has the talent to bring out that devilish arrogance that you love to hate. When working with a talent like that, directing is not about leading him to the performance you want and then maintaining it. It's about crafting the best performance for the story together. For me, that means trying to create rehearsals and a set where the cast feels safe to try things. A place where they trust you to be their safety net, someone they can depend on to stop them if something isn't working and inspire them when they're stuck. It's not about shaping the cast into your character but shaping the character with your cast.

Samuel Lawrence: What was the most difficult scene for you to perform, and how did you work through it?

I'll try to discuss this without ruining the surprise of the film's opening, if at all possible. The scene involves Toby getting ready to meet his colleagues for the first time in a very unusual manner. This was probably the most difficult scene to film, but probably not for the reason you'd expect. While it was a very surreal scene to film, the more technical aspects were actually the hardest to nail. It required some technical choreography, sound direction, and timing between the camera team and me which made for an interesting afternoon to say the least! Ultimately what could have been a somewhat delicate filming experience was made possible and actually enjoyable by the whole crew's dedication to capturing and delivering a truly memorable opening scene. 

We would like to extend a heartfelt thank you to the whole cast and crew and to Nikki, Edward, Samuel, Graeme, and Joseph for sharing their insights, their time, and their incredible creative journey with us. Their dedication to telling complex, unfiltered stories is truly inspiring. We also want to recognize that through their submission, they contributed to a greater cause, helping support relief efforts for the California Fires. Their generosity and passion shine not only through their work on Toby but also through their commitment to making a positive difference beyond the screen.

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